Curse

Pyro maniac · Feb 23, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by steel singer

But how can they kill you then?
If you keep diversion on the warrior he can't spike you or he can't for the next minute..
Wich is enough for you to go after them and roll them..

3 monks can take care of a single hex ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by steel singer

fail players shouldn't wine if they loose to a crap build like this.. All you have to do is chase them and go after their RC first, really easy..

lol? play PvP before posting please

One single damage packet is the best solution without touching the other skills.

C2K · Feb 23, 2008, 01:01 PM // 13:01

This build is annoying to play against, but its not unbeatable. If you can cause them to seperate, you increase your chances of winning, as one monk would be too slow getting in on the spike. Paragons can take "Brace Yourself!", which will keep the other 3 members alive, as they can only kill you with a KD. You can take it to the next level by bringing a Balthazar's Pendulum Smiter or take Aura of Stability with Secondary monk, heck bring "Can't Touch This!" on that Paragon. With exception of "CTT!", the other skills would be helpful against other builds as well since KD is rampant in TA.

Either way, the build wastes time waiting for that spike to recharge, so attack it with everything you got, make them run around and use skills. Thats how mistakes are made in spike teams, especially those who are not skilled with the build.

Teh Jace · Feb 23, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

But the real problem is if u run balanced grp which is supposed to beat everything (if not so we are in build warz and anet fails) and u face a decent shove spike with orange ping on ur ranger u are likely to lose.

Brace urself affects only one target as well as aura of stability. And guys believe me I have smashed tons of shove spikes so far but there are still certain 'laggy' shove grps around our grp cant beat (BTW I have 5Mbs connection).

urania · Feb 23, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

i think the 2 monk fag build is much more annoying, but ok.

nevertheless, chasing a droks-run team accross a huge map like the beach one tends to be really annoying too. a grapsing earth necro is pretty vital to beating such teams, next to a megabane ranger. pity both of them are not as good vs 2 monk fags teams.

Popo · Feb 23, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

First off, balanced is not "supposed" to beat everything. That's just how you think the game should be. Fact is, especially with four character slots, you cannot build for literally everything. Get your pre-conceptions of how this game should be out of your head. Also, what is "balanced" is subject to the metagame. You have to adapt your balanced builds to what others are using to counter you. That is the very definition of metagaming. Do it.

Second, if you are playing "balanced" then you probably have the equivalent of a Ranger which you have already claimed is a great counter to this build. You then go on whining about how you can't play balanced on certain servers because your internet sucks and other lame excuses that I always read on these boards. In the end, you just whine about everything. I'll admit, I don't always beat this build with PuG groups (though I have very high success rate otherwise), but I NEVER feel robbed when I lose because I can recognize the mistakes our group made that led to our downfall.

And if you've already smashed countless groups of this spike, why cry about it? Those who are good enough to beat you should get rewarded for their effort. There's no need to make excuses for losing to this. The only reason why you make excuses is because you don't want to admit you got out-worked.

P.S. The only qualm I really have about this build is that it cannot be Spirit Bonded.

valence · Feb 23, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

First off, balanced is not "supposed" to beat everything. That's just how you think the game should be. Fact is, especially with four character slots, you cannot build for literally everything. Get your pre-conceptions of how this game should be out of your head. Also, what is "balanced" is subject to the metagame. You have to adapt your balanced builds to what others are using to counter you. That is the very definition of metagaming. Do it.

If there is no balanced build that has at least an ok chance to beat everything, the game becomes a rock paper scissor format. Aka build warz. There are skills that are ok versus this build, but it ends there, just ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

Second, if you are playing "balanced" then you probably have the equivalent of a Ranger which you have already claimed is a great counter to this build. You then go on whining about how you can't play balanced on certain servers because your internet sucks and other lame excuses that I always read on these boards. In the end, you just whine about everything. I'll admit, I don't always beat this build with PuG groups (though I have very high success rate otherwise), but I NEVER feel robbed when I lose because I can recognize the mistakes our group made that led to our downfall.

You need to play this game before blaming someones connection, playing cross continent is auto-loss against any decent shove spike team. The only reason why people are winning versus this build is most shove spikers are epic bad, including the inventors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

And if you've already smashed countless groups of this spike, why cry about it? Those who are good enough to beat you should get rewarded for their effort. There's no need to make excuses for losing to this. The only reason why you make excuses is because you don't want to admit you got out-worked.

P.S. The only qualm I really have about this build is that it cannot be Spirit Bonded.

Read above. Your arguments are off.

Popo · Feb 23, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

If there is no balanced build that has at least an ok chance to beat everything, the game becomes a rock paper scissor format. Aka build warz. There are skills that are ok versus this build, but it ends there, just ok.

It's not "supposed" to be that way, that's just how people think it "should" be. Regardless, balanced DOES beat this build so what's your point? Might as well just be quiet. And just a side note, you claim balanced should have and "ok" chance to beat anything and go on to say that there are "ok" skills to handle this build. You just countered yourself as to why nobody should be bitching about this.

Quote:

You need to play this game before blaming someones connection, playing cross continent is auto-loss against any decent shove spike team. The only reason why people are winning versus this build is most shove spikers are epic bad, including the inventors.

Just because I don't suck and have a decent computer does not make me unexperienced. I play on Europe servers more than American servers and I'm from America. Lag is a noob excuse for any online game. End of story.

Quote:

Read above. Your arguments are off.

Try addressing this actual point instead of directing me to your other poorly constructed arguments. If he's beaten "tons" of groups (his words) then he obviously knows how to beat this setup. If certain ones are skilled enough to overcome him he needs to stop bitching. You claim they all suck, but if that were the case he would never lose.

Teh Jace · Feb 23, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I know how to beat this setup.

Read above Im not gonna repeat myself.

steel singer · Feb 23, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Last time we faced this our team had like 7 deaths but we still won, just because they only have 4 ress signets and if you know what you are doing you will win..
It was on a priest map but still..

AND btw the only people we loose to are Aatx with their lame 2 monk build and [Gank] with Placebo, but for the rest we mostly win..

valence · Feb 23, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popo

It's not "supposed" to be that way, that's just how people think it "should" be. Regardless, balanced DOES beat this build so what's your point? Might as well just be quiet. And just a side note, you claim balanced should have and "ok" chance to beat anything and go on to say that there are "ok" skills to handle this build. You just countered yourself as to why nobody should be bitching about this.

Just because I don't suck and have a decent computer does not make me unexperienced. I play on Europe servers more than American servers and I'm from America. Lag is a noob excuse for any online game. End of story.

Except those ok skills aren't that great in other matches or forces you to bring certain characters which have their own flaws. Keep in mind this aint the only gimmick and balance take huge hits. The only builds that actually auto-wins or close to that, are gimmicks on their own. gogo buildwars.

Saying your lag doesnt increase playing cross continent does tells me you dont play, it has nothing to do with a computer / internet connection. Common sense would tell you large distance equals higher ping.

EDIT: I think you miss the point of balanced. First of all, it is supposed to be that way. A-Net wants skills matter, that is how GW is promoted. Matches are decided in the game, not 100% before. Currently the % is growing more to the 100% day by day by random gimmicks. This is not just TA (tho lately ta has an epic uprise) this is true for HA and gvg shown by the current monthly. I never disliked some level of building and speccing, but when that alone (and that alone) is the way to win matches, it becomes bad. It's to bad GW never implemented a limited playstyle feature (costume brawl) as a lot of people would love that.

C2K · Feb 24, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

But the real problem is if u run balanced grp which is supposed to beat everything (if not so we are in build warz and anet fails) and u face a decent shove spike with orange ping on ur ranger u are likely to lose.

No build is supposed to beat everything. Any "Balanced" build is just another gimmick that can be beaten. Perhaps it gives you a shot at winning against anything. To say one build should dominate all builds would mean its the perfect build, and nothing is perfect(or for game balance sake, should be).

As for ping problems, if your lagging, I can't see how you would beat some of the regulars in TA anyway. Maybe its a time zone difference, but the teams and organized PuGs(not grab 4 and go, these are usually ranked players that always play together) that lurk in TA around my time will punish any team with a lagger.

valence · Feb 24, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

No build is supposed to beat everything. Any "Balanced" build is just another gimmick that can be beaten. Perhaps it gives you a shot at winning against anything. To say one build should dominate all builds would mean its the perfect build, and nothing is perfect(or for game balance sake, should be).

As for ping problems, if your lagging, I can't see how you would beat some of the regulars in TA anyway. Maybe its a time zone difference, but the teams and organized PuGs(not grab 4 and go, these are usually ranked players that always play together) that lurk in TA around my time will punish any team with a lagger.

Yes timezone is the issue. Playing as euro on usa does give shove an instawin. A ranger cannot get constantly shove with an orange dot, as said by multiple people.

A gimmick is a build that can only beat other certain builds. A gimmick build relies on a few strategies or just 1, and with that they try to win. A balanced build is a build that adjust to their opponent during the game and find in game a suiting strategy that works versus that build. Gimmicks decide games by using /rock emotes, the second by using a brain. A balanced build is only as strong as the players playing it. However when there is no option for a balanced build then the meta is focked.

TA is going that way. Shove is, as I see it 1 of the reasons why.

Teh Jace · Feb 24, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

However when there is no option for a balanced build then the meta is focked.

The holy man spoke the truth.

There always must be at least one build that can destroy everything.

C2K · Feb 24, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

Yes timezone is the issue. Playing as euro on usa does give shove an instawin. A ranger cannot get constantly shove with an orange dot, as said by multiple people.

Thats not what I was implying. I wasn't saying just monk spike would punish a team with a lagger. Any good team can beat a team with a lagger, its a huge advantage even outside of gimicks.

Quote:

A gimmick is a build that can only beat other certain builds. A gimmick build relies on a few strategies or just 1, and with that they try to win. A balanced build is a build that adjust to their opponent during the game and find in game a suiting strategy that works versus that build. Gimmicks decide games by using /rock emotes, the second by using a brain. A balanced build is only as strong as the players playing it. However when there is no option for a balanced build then the meta is focked.

If you are really good at bloodspike, monk spike, or whatever the fotm, you have a few strategies available. Strategy comes in the form of who to spike first. A team with no strategy would be lost at this point to where the other team would steamroll them. In its simplest form, sure monk spike will allow you to bottom feed the weak teams and RA teams in TA. It may even surprise good teams the first few times the match up. But on a level playing field of knowledge, the better team will still win.

Quote:

TA is going that way. Shove is, as I see it 1 of the reasons why.

TA is really not that bad. Monk spike got my team a few times early on, but we found out how to beat it with our build. In fact, we don't even see monk spike that much in the recent meta, we might see 1 the whole day we TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Jace

The holy man spoke the truth.

There always must be at least one build that can destroy everything.

And that one build would need to be the build that gets nerfed in next skill update, because then their skills are overpowered.

Seraphim of Chaos · Feb 24, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

I do not see Shove Spike too often anymore, either. This is strange because the HC monk meta is totally prone to spikes...

Zena Starlight · Feb 24, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Maybe its because every match is 8 minutes long? ..... Thats a possibility....

the_deSKtructor · Feb 24, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

And that one build would need to be the build that gets nerfed in next skill update, because then their skills are overpowered.

It seems to me that u didn't get the point of a balanced build. It allows u to win vs almost everything as long as the players that plays it are good enough. A noob team playing a balanced wouldn't do anything vs gimmicks and other better balanced teams. That's usually not true for gimmicks. Noobs playing a gimmick are almost as effective as good players running that gimmick.

@Seraphim dual monk gimmick usually has a balthazar pendulum smiter, that owns the kds, so ok that they maybe be prone to spikes but they are surely not prone to shovespike.

C2K · Feb 24, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_deSKtructor

It seems to me that u didn't get the point of a balanced build. It allows u to win vs almost everything as long as the players that plays it are good enough. A noob team playing a balanced wouldn't do anything vs gimmicks and other better balanced teams. That's usually not true for gimmicks. Noobs playing a gimmick are almost as effective as good players running that gimmick.

Your definition of balanced is alot better. The chance to win should be there, but nothing should be guaranteed. But I also think gimmicks do work the same way. Noobs are very prone to screwing up gimmicks and will eventually fail at them, while good players using gimmicks can cause threads like this. But this goes with any build, and in the end skill matters the most... and I'll give you lag matters to. You can't beat good teams if you have the slightest lag.

urania · Feb 24, 2008, 01:30 PM // 13:30

wrong, u cant beat teams if u're having lag AND playing a character where good connection is vital for ur success...ie any kind of interrupter, a monk and, sometimes, a defensive character (like an ele or a necro).
solution: dont play those proffs, go spamway (like hc monks, dd sins r/d escape'ers etc.)
bad side: do i rly have to name it?

TheOneMephisto · Feb 24, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

You guys don't know anything about what balanced is and isn't.

Balanced is a build that can use a variety of tactics in order to have a good chance at beating any other build, depending on their skill level.

A gimmick is a build that only has 1 or very few viable tactics and the only way to beat teams is the constantly use that tactic and hope that they don't have a viable counter to it.